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It's Fun to Play the Pianoforte ... Please Pass It On! |  | | | 68 members (BlizzardPiano, BMKE, Cain Lesdious, 36251, AndrewJCW, accordeur, anotherscott, fifteen invisible), 851 guests, and 310 robots. | | Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod | | | OP  Full Fellow member Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 107 | I like to claiming myself. I play at an intermediate to early on advanced level, and occasionally I will pick upward a piece that is a bit tough and say, "anytime," and motion on with information technology, maybe trying a few notes hither and there but not doing much with it. Then there are the pieces that are questionable. I effort to play them anyway and information technology takes a lot of work, time and patience, and being a mom of immature kids, I don't have equally much time to dedicate to practicing equally I'd like. One piece I'1000 working on is proving to be quite a claiming for me. I'm basically learning it measure past measure, working backwards. I've gotten the notes down on the last page and am working on the terminal line of the preceding page, trying to get the fingering down. It's been 3-4 days and I don't have the notes down to a playable level at all. And, it looks like it only gets harder from there. The piece is a Chopin Nocturne, 62/i, which I signed upwardly for in the Adult Beginner'south forum for the Nocturne recital next Oct. This isn't my commencement Chopin Nocturne, then I figured I'd have no problem, but this piece requires much more than discipline than the other one I've learned. I adequately confident I'll be able to take it downward by October, but I'm simply wondering if I'm challenging myself a bit as well much since I'thou going at such a snail's pace. Or perhaps this is a normal pace and I'yard being too impatient! And then, experts out there, what practise you lot recollect? In the future, should I push myself and piece of work on pieces of this level, or should I ease upwardly a bit? Carolyn
Pianist and mom to three crawly kids (and budding musicians). | | | Joined: May 2001 Posts: 25,970  Yikes! 10000 Postal service Club Member | | Yikes! 10000 Post Gild Fellow member Joined: May 2001 Posts: 25,970 | Carolyn : The one-give-and-take answer to the title of this thread should probably be : analysis. All the same - alas! - I am not a homo who ordinarily gives ane give-and-take answers! Much of determining whether a piece is too hard is directly related to the playing experience one already has. Many can wait at a piece of music and immediately determine how much of a challenge it will exist. That skill comes, commencement, from "how" you await at a piece of music even before you play it. Consider the post-obit criteria (my list is not exhaustive, and may not even be comprehensive) when you first expect at a piece of music and compare your answers to how comfy you are with the tecniques or skills involved : ane) Is information technology in a key you are comfortable with?
2) Does it appear to be at a tempo that you can eventually manage?
3) Is it linear (a tune line with relatively simple accompaniment) or is it markedly chordal in structure?
4) If chordal, is information technology densely so; volition it therefore require much figuring out not simply of fingering but of voicing?
v) Is it contrapuntal, and how practise y'all handle multiple-voice compositions?
half dozen) Do parts or lines motility from register to register gradually and comfortably or are there large leaps to be negotiated, and at what tempo?
7) Are at that place sections that are repeated, or are there many repetitious figures or passages in the work, or is every page unlike?
viii) Are there circuitous rhythmic patterns?
9) Are there polyrhythmic sections in the work that will require (perhaps) painstaking piece of work?
10) Are there particular challenges to my level of technique : passages in thirds or sixths, octaves, fioritura (or cadenza-like passages), octave passages, rapid scale passages, etc., etc. Others don't notice that out these challenges until they start working on a slice considering - maybe - they have not studied the score sufficiently before committing themselves to information technology. Looking at the Nocturne in question : Key : B major / A-flat major
Tempo : Andante
Texture : markedly linear, typically Chopin with an arpeggiated bass just it'south late Chopin and both the RH and the LH on occasion have two-function writing, meaning "voicing" of the individual lines will have to be worked at and residue of the voicing will be crucial. This is perhaps the biggest challenge of this piece. Technical challenges :
1) There are a few measures that comprise polyrhythms : a few moments of two confronting three and five against two, but relatively few.
2) The Ab major section has a syncopated bass.
3) The section from measures 68 through 75 with the continuous descending trill figure in the RH, sometimes (measures 68-69) with a lower voice in the same paw as the on-going trill, may be a challenge. I think that the biggest challenge in this Nocturne for me would exist working out the voicing. Note how many times when at that place are ii voices in 1 - or both - hands - the secondary vocalisation has a held note on the off-beat out. The texture becomes quite complex at measures 76-81 (a tempo primo) with ii voices moving in each mitt. Your "snail'due south step" may be a skillful thing, but merely y'all tin decide if the pace is producing the results you are expecting. If you are satisfied with what you have washed getting the notes downward on the last folio, you should know that you have probably conquered the easiest measures of this Nocturne. As my unasked for pseudo-analysis of the slice suggests, you lot accept much harder work in store for you lot that what you have and so far encountered. I would think that yous would want to take this piece near "performance gear up" by the Summer and then that the last couple of months before the recital yous would be living with it comfortably and working out fine details of estimation. Deplorable for the long soapbox. The concluding answer, I estimate, is that merely you can decide whether this is within your grasp, whether it volition come into your grasp, if you take the time to piece of work out all the complexities and, finally, whether the amount of work you have to put into it is worth the time required. Good luck with this beautiful work. Regards,
BruceD
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Estonia 190 | | | Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 17,390 Yikes! 10000 Post Social club Fellow member | | Yikes! 10000 Mail service Club Member Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 17,390 | Something to go on in listen is that while a piece may not be too challenging for you, if you don't take the time required to create the muscle retention necessary, then it may be too hard for you at that fourth dimension. I'chiliad not convinced this practicing backwards is the right approach for someone who doesn't have much time to do. Are you able to play straight through the whole piece at all? If not, and so yous shouldn't be playing this ane. Op. 72/1 might be a good one to look at instead. If you can play through it, and then you demand to narrow your sights on the measures that are difficult when sightreading. In the moments that you take time to practice, so you just practice one of those difficult areas until that is easy. This may take several days. So play straight through it once that surface area is easier. And then the side by side time, pick the next hard part. This focused attention on the measures that need the nigh work is much amend than treating all measures equally. They aren't nevertheless difficulty. Looking at your starting time nocturne 55/i, and then 62/1 (I've never played the latter), information technology would seem similar there is a huge jump in difficulty betwixt the two. The fundamental signature alone is a challenge because of the occasional double sharps. The fiorituras and chromaticism are probably a bit too much at this betoken assuming that the 55/1 was a skillful friction match for your level. In fact, I'k making lots of assumptions considering I don't know what else you've played, nor practice I know how much time you have to do. Just given the amount of time it has taken you to get not very far with this piece makes it articulate to me that this is also difficult at this point. Another Nocturne possibilities are: 9/2, 15/3, 37/1, (or 72/1).
private pianoforte/vocalism instructor FT ![[Linked Image]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/blogger_img_proxy/AEn0k_tYgfY5Wjp3dr-6KJmqWTJomcTReu0Mp2-FZPwT-LPZdcKehqNzhbmVOesqoNFfSVIjC3TJMwRJfu002d4BOlHq-TTlqB_dT3zREtHaYg620zbJ7dWp0SaHusb41dw=s0-d)
![[Linked Image]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/blogger_img_proxy/AEn0k_viIIpyNFa6eq160i_TCc9UFpnr8Zrhi-G1JT6Rnwkd6SuuIYhoalozrsTBCpwtnm_OJO-uT9MNxtOEthjuJMw9IdyrL8Zowzo5a52yZKNss6YYnDIEK1GV9Ng=s0-d) | | | Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: half dozen,163 6000 Post Society Member | | 6000 Post Gild Member Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: six,163 | Carolyn, I don't think nosotros know nearly enough details to do anything but estimate at whether this particular piece is too hard. As to the larger question (which has been discussed before, as you will notice if you search on too hard or as well hard in the subject line), I recollect that to a higher place all it's a matter of results. If you're not seeing progress commensurate with your time and endeavour, then that'southward testify that you're over your head. While I don't think that three or four days is a sufficient corporeality of fourth dimension to be indicative, 62/1 is unquestionably a big bound overall from 55/1â€"and, as you've acknowledged, the final page is less demanding than what comes earlier it. Instead of working backwards, why not pick the passages you lot foresee to be the most challenging and work on them commencement instead? If they testify to be intractable after an earnest corporeality of focused time and endeavor, then you will take your answer and you lot can feel good about cutting your losses. Morodiene, I wonder if I'm misreading something in your post about using the power to play through a piece equally a benchmark for its suitability for learning. I acknowledge I like a challenge, but I don't remember the last piece I learned that I would accept been capable of reading through before I learned it. The presence of counterpoint, dense chords and peculiarly fioriture would make that pretty much incommunicable for me. (Simply FWIW I likewise didn't follow why key signature (i.e., presence of accidentals) would be a factor in a piece'southward learnability, either. I understand that double-sharps, for example, could be difficult to read initially, but, once identified and learned, they're non whatever harder to play.) Steven | | | Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 8,483 8000 Post Gild Member | | 8000 Post Club Member Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: eight,483 | if after a few weeks trying to larn or play 1-2 pages of a piece and you even so cannot play it comfortably, then information technology'southward too hard. also, fifty-fifty if you tin acquire a slice, but later a few months, you still cannot play it at the tempo, then it would mean your ability of playing information technology isn't there yet. i've done this plenty of times and concluded upwardly dropping the piece. | | | Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 17,390 Yikes! 10000 Post Club Fellow member | | Yikes! 10000 Mail service Club Fellow member Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 17,390 | Steven,
In that location is not some piece that I've learned that I couldn't first play through it. Information technology may be painfully irksome, and slower at the difficult parts, only I could still make my style through it to get an overall feel for the piece, what parts volition need extra work, what the piece is about musically and emotionally, etc. I don't mean be able to play it to some degree of performance level at all. Merely y'all should be able to read through more than ane measure at a fourth dimension, similar the OP has stated. **edited to add: I forgot to address your 2nd question with regards tot he key. For a tardily-intermediate early advanced pianist, key signatures do make a divergence. I have to be careful with which pieces I assign students just because of the key signature. If the content itself is a challenge, and then oftentimes the key will put it over the edge for them. Of course, I don't know the reading power of the OP, so all this is guess work at this bespeak, which is the best whatever of us tin practise. There was something else I was going to say, merely I forgot 
private piano/vocalization teacher FT
| | | Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: vi,163 6000 Post Order Member | | 6000 Post Club Member Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 6,163 | Originally posted by Morodiene:
Steven,
There is not some piece that I've learned that I couldn't offset play through information technology. Information technology may be painfully slow, and slower at the difficult parts, but I could still make my way through it to become an overall experience for the piece, what parts will need extra work, what the piece is about musically and emotionally, etc. I don't mean be able to play it to some degree of performance level at all. But you should exist able to read through more than than i measure out at a time, like the OP has stated. Well, I didn't misunderstand, and so. I know you're a teacher and I'm not, but I disagree with the validity of that as a blanket statement of general applicability. Even though reading through more than than one measure at a time is far less rigid a requirement than playing straight through the entire slice (equally you lot originally posted), the limitations of that approach don't work for me at all. I would take thought fundamental signature to be completely irrelevant in one case 1 has reached the late intermediate/early on advanced stage. I still don't understand why it's not. Sharps and flats are just notes played like any others, whether or not one has a trouble with reading them. Steven | | | Joined: Apr 2008 Posts: 566 500 Mail Club Fellow member | | 500 Post Club Member Joined: Apr 2008 Posts: 566 | Did you lot say that you'd signed up for this piece on a beginner's forum?  I want some of what they're taking.At least you've got a year to learn it and most pieces will yield to some extent if y'all attack them relentlessly, but however I think it'll exist tough.
Is it likewise late to change your listen and choose something less enervating?Amend to play an easier piece well than a difficult piece badly. | | | Joined: April 2007 Posts: 17,390 Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member | | Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 17,390 | Originally posted by sotto voce:
Originally posted past Morodiene:
[b] Steven,
There is not some piece that I've learned that I couldn't starting time play through it. It may exist painfully ho-hum, and slower at the difficult parts, but I could all the same make my way through it to get an overall feel for the piece, what parts volition demand extra work, what the slice is about musically and emotionally, etc. I don't mean exist able to play it to some degree of performance level at all. But yous should be able to read through more than one measure out at a time, similar the OP has stated. Well, I didn't misunderstand, and so. I know you're a teacher and I'k not, but I disagree with the validity of that as a blanket statement of general applicability. Even though reading through more one measure at a time is far less rigid a requirement than playing direct through the entire piece (as you lot originally posted), the limitations of that approach don't piece of work for me at all. I would have thought key signature to exist completely irrelevant once one has reached the late intermediate/early on advanced stage. I even so don't understand why it'south not. Sharps and flats are just notes played like any others, whether or not one has a problem with reading them. Steven [/b] Perhaps a key signature isn't a problem for you, but it is for those less advanced. I've seen it enough times to know this. In that location is a betoken at which is ceases to be a problem, nevertheless. Again, I am assuming knowing just ii pieces that the OP is played or attempted to play. Information technology is important to choose the correct repertoire at the right phase of learning, as I'one thousand sure your teacher did. When you were playing sonatinas, for instance, did your teacher give you pieces with 6 sharps? I doubt it. As far as your disagreement on being able to play through a piece, doesn't it make sense that if you cannot play through it that information technology is probably too hard for you? Especially when the person in question has limited exercise fourth dimension. Perhaps if she could spend three hours per day on something this would exist less of an effect. I've ever been pressed for practice fourth dimension, so I accept to select my pieces wisely.
private piano/voice teacher FT
| | | Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: half dozen,163 6000 Mail Club Member | | 6000 Post Club Member Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 6,163 | Originally posted past Morodiene:
As far every bit your disagreement on existence able to play through a piece, doesn't it brand sense that if you lot cannot play through information technology that information technology is probably too hard for you? No, it honestly doesn't brand sense for the reasons I mentioned: counterpoint, dense chords and, especially, fioriture. Being able to read through a slice containing those elements and whatsoever other complex figurations would be the concluding criterion on my mind as dispositive of its ultimate learnability. Equally to central signatures, sure, I can empathise that a pupil'due south level of advancement would be a factor in their comfort level. But, as I said, past the late intermediate (and unquestionably early advanced) stage, information technology'due south difficult to imagine that being an result. Students playing sonatinas aren't considered late intermediate/early advanced, are they? (You don't want to know anything about my own tuition in piano, believe me!) Steven | | | Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 17,390 Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member | | Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 17,390 | Steven,
In that location is no defining line for late intermediate/early advanced. We know naught about the OP's repertoire, then what is her definition of these things? Well, I guess we'll simply have to disagree on this signal. I teach how I run across suits my students best, that is all I can say, and it seems to piece of work out fine for them. I all the same don't empathise how you can't play through the fioriture? How would you possibly be able to learn information technology and so?
private piano/voice teacher FT
| | | Joined: Dec 2008 Posts: 125 Full Member | | Full Member Joined: Dec 2008 Posts: 125 | I have pieces I wanted to play before I took lessons. I had to set those bated and learn the manner piano was suppose to be taugh. After a year with good progress I guess. I've finished with some czerny and beginner stuff. I encouraged myself to get even bigger learn more and keep practicing. I'm on 5 new books now. I LOVE the piano theres no manner I'yard gonna stop playing. I actually desire to play Polonaise Heroic 53. But I not up to that level however. Theres afew pieces I wanted to play they are Final Fantasy Seven piano collection pieces. Tatakau monotachi sound really hard before I started playing at showtime. Now my music has go complexed, I recall I can finished them someday. I'thousand working on Schumann'southward Piano Concert op 22 no 2. My teacher did not assign me to it only I did it myself. Becuase I love information technology! | | | Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,453 8000 Postal service Order Member | | 8000 Post Club Fellow member Joined: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,453 | Originally posted by sotto voce:
Carolyn, I don't call back we know nearly enough details to exercise anything but guess at whether this particular piece is too difficult. Every bit to the larger question (which has been discussed before, as you volition find if y'all search on too hard or too difficult in the subject field line), I retrieve that in a higher place all it'south a matter of results. If y'all're not seeing progress commensurate with your time and attempt, and so that's evidence that you're over your head.While I don't think that three or 4 days is a sufficient amount of time to exist indicative, 62/1 is unquestionably a big leap overall from 55/1â€"and, as you've acknowledged, the final folio is less demanding than what comes before it. Instead of working backwards, why not pick the passages you foresee to be the near challenging and work on them first instead? If they prove to exist intractable after an earnest corporeality of focused time and attempt, then you will have your answer and you lot can feel good virtually cutting your losses. Morodiene, I wonder if I'm misreading something in your postal service about using the ability to play through a piece as a benchmark for its suitability for learning. I admit I like a challenge, just I don't remember the last piece I learned that I would have been capable of reading through before I learned it. The presence of counterpoint, dense chords and especially fioriture would make that pretty much impossible for me. (But FWIW I too didn't follow why primal signature (i.e., presence of accidentals) would be a factor in a slice's learnability, either. I understand that double-sharps, for example, could be difficult to read initially, but, once identified and learned, they're non any harder to play.) Steven Steven's advice about picking out the difficult spots is right on. I'thousand doing that with Op.44, with excellent results. Getting past the big hurdles allows y'all to relax a bit and have fun learning, rather than struggling.  PS--Sorry I didn't reply terminal night...I was tired. 
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons. | | | Joined: Dec 2008 Posts: 12 Junior Fellow member | | Inferior Member Joined: Dec 2008 Posts: 12 | I was surprised reading comments about the key signature and the rest. I can not beleive that piano instructor would come up up with all this staff.
May be I do not know annihilation in respect to to a higher place mentioned things. I personaly look at the score and try to listen to the tape of the piece. than weight upwardly my ain strengh. I practise not know this music but in whatever chore it is non about doing information technology but more than how to practice it.
forgive my English I notice information technology hard to write. | | | Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 168 Full Member | | Full Fellow member Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 168 | I also agree that if you cannot even play the notes, information technology is patently too hard for yous. I've never worked on a piece that I could not play, I don't call back. I suppose my first few weeks of lessons, of course, or commencement few months. At present I don't hateful you can whip information technology off almost functioning-perfect or easily, but if you cannot fifty-fifty play the notes at all, it sounds way too hard. The slice is much too difficult a nocturne for someone who has merely played one earlier, I think. That is not one of the easier ones. It seems like a teacher should take had some input into this and allow you lot know if this makes sense to work on this or not. It really can be a waste of time trying to play something that is just besides difficult for your level. But ultimately, it's your time. If one has express time to do (and what adult doesn't), is that what you consider the best employ of your time and what you want to do with it? Work so much on one piece that yous cannot play hardly at all, and laboring over mensurate by measure. I dont' understand why you'd start at the end, either. Having said that, possibly you are being unrealistic and information technology's fine (simply I don't remember anyone would choice that for someone'south first or second Chopin nocturne to learn), as I don't wait to become whatsoever piece at a finished level in merely iii-4 days (finished for me, which is def. not "perfect"). At to the lowest degree nothing but piffling stuff I'1000 working on for fun, non seriously. | | | Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 17,390 Yikes! 10000 Post Society Member | | Yikes! 10000 Post Society Member Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 17,390 | Originally posted by hudduk78:
I was surprised reading comments about the key signature and the residual. I can not beleive that piano teacher would come up with all this staff.
May be I practice not know anything in respect to above mentioned things.I personaly await at the score and endeavour to heed to the tape of the slice. than weight up my own strengh. I practise non know this music but in whatsoever chore it is not almost doing information technology but more than how to exercise it.
forgive my English language I find it hard to write. Since I'm the teacher you are referring to who is "coming up with this staff", what criteria do y'all base your stance on? You lot have basically insulted me with your annotate, but you lot practise non offer any reason why or why not. If anyone is to learn, myself included, it would be nice to at least hear some of your reasons why yous think this. For example, In Cathy Albergo & Reid Alexander's "Intermediate Piano Repertoire: a Guide for Didactics", they list Chopin Nocturnes every bit Advanced repertoire, and then list this every bit a possible order of learning: nine/2, 15/three, 72/1, 37/1, one of which is in three flats, two in 2 flats, and one in i sharp. This would imply that the keys with more sharps or flats are more technically demanding, whether by nature of the key or by the content nosotros can't say from this data lone, but it still stands to reason that these would be easier to learn for the OP. This happens to be the but volume that I take at dwelling house, but I tin exercise more research when I make it my studio. In the meantime, perhaps provide some resource to dorsum up your statement.
private piano/voice teacher FT
| | | Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 6,163 6000 Post Society Fellow member | | 6000 Post Lodge Member Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 6,163 | Originally posted by Morodiene:
[...] For example, In Cathy Albergo & Reid Alexander'southward "Intermediate Piano Repertoire: a Guide for Teaching", they listing Chopin Nocturnes as Advanced repertoire, and then list this equally a possible order of learning: 9/2, 15/iii, 72/1, 37/1, 1 of which is in 3 flats, two in 2 flats, and one in one sharp. This would imply that the keys with more than sharps or flats are more technically demanding, whether past nature of the primal or past the content we can't say from this information alone, simply it even so stands to reason that these would be easier to acquire for the OP. I am just not understanding how central signatures with more sharps or flats have escalating technical demands "by nature of the fundamental," or why the key signature would be thought to take whatever intrinsic connection to technical difficulty at all. Schumann's Toccata is in C; Mary Had a Petty Lamb will nevertheless be Mary Had a Little Lamb even in F-precipitous. What would brand black keys, even a preponderance of them, harder to play than white keys? Harder to read at a certain level of advancement, peradventure, but why harder to play? Steven | | | Joined: May 2001 Posts: 25,970 Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member | | Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member Joined: May 2001 Posts: 25,970 | I judge nosotros are not going to become a consensus on some of the issues raised in this thread until nosotros fully sympathise and concur on what it means to be "tardily intermediate" or "early advanced." Certainly, I wouldn't wait a educatee with only a year or and so of studies to be comfortable or even familiar with all major and minor keys. By the time we go to late intermediate and early advanced, I would recollect that not only would all keys exist covered but also that someone at that phase would be comfortable playing in any of the twelve major or minor keys. I tin't run into that one key signature is going to make a work whatsoever more difficult than another key signature - unless the nature of the writing is awkward, and that doesn't normally have much to do with fundamental signatures. As far as the list of easier Nocturnes that was nigh recently posted, I can't run across that it'due south the key signature alone that makes them "easier," (nor am I implying that that is what the poster is suggesting) but I would inappreciably think that the key signature fifty-fifty needs to be considered equally a criterion for judging the difficulty of any of these works for the more advanced student; it is the straightforward writing. If i is familiar with Eigeldinger's book, Chopin, Pianist and Teacher as seen past his pupils one will remember that the point is made - I'll take to see if I can find the precise reference - that Chopin often prefered keys - and scales - with sharps and flats (B major, D-apartment major,) fifty-fifty for his less-advanced pupils considering works or exercises in these keys autumn much better under the hand than many of the keys with fewer accidentals. Regards,
BruceD
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